Creating A Fulfilling Holiday Experience For Law Enforcement Families

00:04
Brent Hinson
Between the lines with Virtual Academy. We all have a story to tell. Hello, and welcome to another edition of between the Lines with Virtual Academy. We’re a podcast going beyond the bats to allow members of law enforcement, public safety and first response place to tell their stories and also talk about the cases that have impacted their lives. How you doing? I’m your co host, Brent Henson, and here on the podcast from time to time, we like to double back to certain guests, either because they have multiple stories to share or as is the case for one of our guests today, because we wanted to follow up on something she talked about the first time she appeared.

00:42
Brent Hinson
Back in episode 62, Katherine Boyle appeared with her dad, retired at Philadelphia Lieutenant Michael Boyle, in one of two back to back episodes about law enforcement and family life. Today she’s back to expand on that topic a little bit and talk about an event coming up that she’s partnering with and putting on with the other guests we have. We’ll get to them in just a moment. Michael Warren I’m kind of interested. We did two back to back episodes about law enforcement and family life. Katherine and her dad’s episode came first, and then the next week it was your family. And I’m kind of interested to see what Catherine’s thoughts on that episode were.

01:21
Michael Warren
After she listened to Know. I just thought it was such an interesting take. And I told you I was a little bit nervous about doing the episode with my mom and my daughter simply because Katherine and her dad were so picture perfect. I mean, it was like fricking leave it to know, talking about doing things perfectly. I like to think that I like her dad, but maybe not so much because he was so dag on good at what he did.

01:53
Brent Hinson
But it was interesting to get a couple of different perspectives on what it’s like for law enforcement and families. And I think that’s a topic that probably needs to be talked about a little bit more. And I think we’re going to be able to get into the thick of things today is we like to offer some sort of solution to any problems that we bring up. So that’s what we try to do on this here podcast.

02:14
Michael Warren
It’s very easy to identify problems, but I appreciate people that come with solutions that are practical and accessible, and I think that’s what we’re going to find today.

02:25
Brent Hinson
I think so. Well, as I mentioned in the opening, Katherine Boyle is making her second appearance on the podcast, first appearing earlier this summer in episode 62. She is the founder of beyond the Uniform, an organization dedicated to supporting police officers who want to protect and serve while prioritizing a stronger connection within their families. Joining Katherine is Jennifer Anderson. She is the founder and CEO of First Responder Coaching, a group that supports first responders and their families by helping them create goals and structure that enables strong and lasting relationships. Catherine, welcome back. And Jennifer, it’s a pleasure to have you on the podcast. This is going to be a good discussion today. I can feel it.

03:12
Katherine Boyle
Hi, I’m so glad to be back. Thank you guys for having us.

03:15
Jennifer Anderson
Yes, and I appreciate the invitation with Katherine today. It’s going to be great.

03:19
Michael Warren
Well, Catherine, I’m going to start with you. How is my favorite lieutenant doing? Is he doing well since we had him on? Is he out curing cancer? We’re working with famine relief. That’s what I would expect been doing in the interim here.

03:35
Katherine Boyle
He’s doing whatever he can. No, he’s doing really well, working hard still.

03:39
Michael Warren
And isn’t it amazing how hard workers tend to work hard no matter what it is that they do?

03:45
Katherine Boyle
Yes.

03:46
Michael Warren
And as with anything that is positive, sometimes it can also be a negative. But he seems to handle that extremely well.

03:56
Katherine Boyle
Yes. And I think he’s really passionate about what he does and really believes in supporting the victims and all of that. So I think know as much as he can. He really enjoys it, and he enjoys working. He’s always enjoyed working hard.

04:12
Michael Warren
Jennifer, I don’t know if you’ve met Catherine’s dad. He’s a heck of a nice guy, but I mean this sincerely. I enjoy finding people who are as dedicated about what they do as he is because it makes a difference in the end product.

04:28
Jennifer Anderson
Yes. I have actually not yet met Catherine’s dad, however, in having many conversations with Katherine about her upbringing and just a little tidbit about me. My husband was a police officer as well, for 15 years. And so living as a spouse of a law enforcement officer, I absolutely can connect and relate and understand how incredible of a job that Catherine’s parents, Catherine’s dad, did in creating the perfect environment to raise an amazing daughter.

04:58
Michael Warren
Brent, no one has ever talked about you, and I like that on here.

05:01
Brent Hinson
Just I compliment you all the time in your hair.

05:06
Michael Warren
But I would like to get your lady’s perspective on something as we’re recording this. We recently had the horrible tragedy that took place up in Maine, and we had a tremendous loss of life. But the part I would like to get your perspectives on law enforcement, I mean, there was a shelter in place order for a couple days during that event. I can’t imagine the stress that must have been on the family of the law enforcement officers, because when you go for something like that, it’s not like you’re going in for a shift. It’s more like a military deployment where you’re gone, completely gone, and there’s limited interaction between the family members and their loved ones who are on the first responder team.

05:54
Michael Warren
How difficult must that have been for those families to endure that, understanding what had happened, who they’re looking for and the length of time that it involved.

06:04
Katherine Boyle
I mean, honestly, I can’t imagine. I was thinking about it a lot, just watching everything unfold, how I’m the daughter of a police officer, but I’ve never had to experience anything like that. And I can’t imagine. And it’s so strange to me because policing is a nine to five job. I’m using air quotes. It’s a nine to five job. It’s not the military. The average American doesn’t understand. They just think they go out, they do their job, and they come home at the end of the night and there’s really just so much more that goes into it that so many people just can’t comprehend.

06:45
Katherine Boyle
And having just a little bit of an insight into that as the daughter and niece of a police officer, it’s so strange to me how nobody understands that these people are literally putting their lives on the line for other people’s safety. They’re seeing experiencing horrific things, and they’re just expected to operate like a normal person in society and go home and have everything be. I can’t Imagine it. And I don’t know, maybe Jennifer can speak to it because well, let me ask you this.

07:20
Brent Hinson
Do you think it’s that way because maybe those in law enforcement are hesitant to open up more and talk about those sorts of things? Is that an educated guess? Maybe.

07:31
Katherine Boyle
I think partially yes. But I also think if the average person just took five minutes to actually think about what police officers experience, I think they could come to that conclusion themselves. If you just look at the news and understand all those men and women that are wearing those blue uniforms are having to deal with this, and they’re a human just like you sitting behind the TV watching it.

07:56
Brent Hinson
Outside perspective. I have no one in law enforcement. I am not in law enforcement. And this podcast has definitely changed my perspective, hearing the stories of those in law enforcement. I think it’s important to have these guests on these episodes where they share their stories so we can get insight on who they are. They are human beings just like us. They get up and they go to a job, but their lives are in danger when they go to their job, whereas mine not so much.

08:26
Michael Warren
I guess one of the things that we have to deal with nowadays that perhaps 30, 40 years ago wasn’t an issue, is how accessible news is about the events that our loved ones are involved in. It used to be. And showing my age here, TV wasn’t 24 hours. There was a sign off at the end of the night and there was no news until the next day. So there wasn’t that constant. There was downtime. How does that play into things when it talk about family members of first responders?

08:59
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you for asking. There was a situation where we did have a standoff in the city. He was working in. I was a high school English teacher at the time. And so at the standoff, we did have a total citywide lockdown. So when we talk about what it feels like being in a situation where the entire area, you are sheltered in place, you do not move. There’s nothing other than the police movement and the first responder community movement out there. And so I was at the high school at the time, and the mayor himself decided to go on Facebook Live to share the second by second story about what was happening with the standoff. And to be frank, that was not helpful for the family members, for the people who were concerned about their loved ones being there.

09:50
Jennifer Anderson
I understand that the goal was to share information as quickly as we could about the situation and the scene, but the images I have of my husband standing in front of a group of people with his hand ready to pull is one I will never get out of my head for the rest of my life. So going back to your conversation about Lewiston, I have many family members, actually, in Lewiston. The whole side of my dad’s side of the family lives in Lewiston. And so when I heard they were going on lockdown, I understood. I felt the challenges that they were going to be facing in those hours of lockdown. So it’s not easy, no matter what side of the badge you’re on. Lots of nights of texting and you’re joking around about dating yourself.

10:36
Jennifer Anderson
When Read receipts happened on iPhones, I immediately switched to iPhone. We switched to iPhones because I want to have a read receipt. So I know if you don’t have time to text me back, it’s okay, but I know you’re alive because at least you read my text, which to general population, that might sound insane, but to our family, that you don’t consider that I wanted to know at least he was alive because he’s reading my text messages.

11:00
Michael Warren
Well, it would seem, and I could be totally off base, as I am often. But when we talk about a significant incident, if it comes on the news and it’s in the past, even if it’s the recent past, that is a different feeling that it generates with family members than an incident that is ongoing that has not yet been resolved. And it seems like there is such this desire in the public for I want to watch it unfold. And that has to be incredibly unhealthy for family members. And Catherine, when you were growing up, I can’t imagine what it would be like for someone who still hasn’t developed the full thinking capacity, an understanding of the context, how that can play on you, not only short term, but long term.

11:51
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, I mean, I consider myself lucky for having grown up when I did. And we didn’t have social media. I’m dating myself now. No social media, didn’t have cell phones. So a lot of it was kind of out of sight, out of mind. I’ve talked about this before, and this sounds ridiculous to so many people, but I really didn’t comprehend what my dad did much when I was little, because all I knew was that he went to work and he came home, and I’ve talked about this before, too. Every time he left the house for work, my mom said, Be careful. And growing up, I literally thought be careful was the same thing as see you later. I didn’t understand that he literally needed to be careful because I didn’t have this 24/7 exposure or this constant awareness to what he might be experiencing.

12:50
Katherine Boyle
It was just a whole nother world.

12:53
Michael Warren
That I had no recollection of, again, dating myself. Things like FaceTime, to me, have both a very positive aspect to them but also a very negative aspect to them. I enjoy reading and researching about World War II, and I think about how the greatest Generation, many of them, left home in 1941 or 1942, and many didn’t return home until 1945 or 1946, and the only communication that they had with family members was via letter. But oftentimes by the time the letter reached the family members, the family member had moved to another place. But it would seem like that the folks at home, it was easier in many ways to carry on their life in a normal fashion because it was almost abstract what was going on. You might see the newsreels and stuff like that if you went to the movies on the weekends.

13:47
Michael Warren
But now our troops, for example, they can FaceTime. And I think back then, I know it was dramatized. I know it was a movie, but American Sniper, where Chris Kyle was on a satellite phone with his wife, and this thing goes down real time. That’s where I think it would be hardest for the family member and Jennifer. Maybe you can kind of address that. That real time. Hey, I got to go. I’m going on this call, and you get nothing else but that. But, you know, by the way they’re talking, it ain’t good.

14:17
Jennifer Anderson
So, yes, there were a number of times the amount of seconds at a half a second it took for me to hear his radio go off, him say, ten four, hon. I got to go. I was okay. But I love you. And click. It was second nature. It became just such a quick habit. And it’s funny because now that he’s not on the job, we still have that habit. He’s driving or whatever. We’re having a quick conversation. Okay, I got to go. Okay, love you. Bye. Okay, love you. Bye. Okay, love you. Bye. It’s just such a quick thing still, because you’re right. In that moment, in that instant, I know that he had to prioritize his career, his city, his people that lived in the city that he worked in but were his people, and he had to prioritize that over me.

15:01
Michael Warren
I love how you put that right there, prioritizing this over me. But, Catherine, remembering back to our conversation, it seemed like that your dad did such a good job of always making it. You feel like you were the priority when you were together, you were first. And I think that’s where there’s this struggle with the people in the first responder field. Listen, how do you explain to a little kid that, yes, I love you more than life itself, but I can’t talk to you right now. You have this great thing that went on, but I have to handle this first.

15:36
Katherine Boyle
Well, and I think part of that, too, is now we have the ability to talk to our kids when we’re at work so dad, mom, cop can call the kid and be mid conversation and have to go real fast. And that might give the appearance or the effect that whatever I’ve got going on this side of the phone is more important than you and this conversation we’re having now. Whereas really just putting the emphasis on when you’re at work, be at work, and then when you’re at home, be nothing but be at home. And when I was growing up, that is all we had because we didn’t have the cell phones. But now we’ve got the cell phones, we’ve got all this 24/7 access to people, and I think it just makes things a little bit murky.

16:23
Brent Hinson
Well, I think as far as mental health goes, that’s the encouraging thing that those in therapy will tell you. You’ve got to leave work at work. Well, when you’re a first responder, that’s really not an option. That’s a tough.

16:37
Jennifer Anderson
Especially when they’re working 16s overtime. Force overtime, the details and all the other. My husband works for 15 years on the force, but when we actually look at the amount of time spent in that uniform, it was definitely close to double that when it really came down to it, because of lack of staffing, lack of support, the needs of the community were more important, and he needed to be there for that. And that was the sacrifice that I was willing to make, were willing to make.

17:09
Michael Warren
All right, so, Jennifer, I’m going to run this by you here, okay?

17:13
Jennifer Anderson
Please.

17:13
Michael Warren
So when I was on the job, you have to go to these horrific scenes and you have to deal with these bad things that happen, and that’s bad enough. But one of the things that bothered me was that, okay, that doesn’t mean it’s over, because a year and a half down the road, I could have to go to court and testify about what I observed at this horrific scene. And not only do I have to talk about it, but oftentimes I have to talk about it in an adversarial manner, because you’ve got a defense attorney that is trying to tear down and reinterpret what it was that you saw, and that doesn’t seem to be healthy either. It’s necessary. I get that it’s necessary. But if that’s the only time we talk about it seems like that could be incredibly harmful.

17:59
Jennifer Anderson
Yes. So again, thinking back through some of the experiences that we had that Kevin and I went through yes. To be honest, that 15 years that he was on the job, I didn’t know much about the tough ones. I knew little tidbits. Again, we had some conversations with Katherineabout that protective nature of that relationship. And so it wasn’t until, honestly, he had a mental health break back in 2017 that led to a six week hospitalization. And it was looking through the medical documentation over his hospitalization that I learned so much more about the experiences he had over those 15 years. And so, in hindsight, I wish I had known some more, so I could have supported him through it better. But you’re right. Having to relive the triggers, the trauma, not just you walk away from the event, and that’s it.

18:57
Jennifer Anderson
It’s gone for years and years, and ultimately his empathy bucket runth over. And that’s what led to his medical retirement in 2019.

19:07
Michael Warren
We talked to Katherineand to her dad. She talked about what a great job he always did, protecting her from that. He was so good at it. When she grew up, she found more about what he’d been doing. And to me, she looked at her dad with a sense of awe that he was able to do that. And that had to be the same type of response that you had. But it had to be coupled with this, man, I wish I could have helped. I wish I would have been allowed to help you through these tough times, all these things that you’re reading during his time at the hospital. It had to be, Man, I can’t believe he did all this.

19:50
Michael Warren
I can’t believe that he lasted this long doing all this, but how much do I wish I could have been there to help him along with it?

19:58
Jennifer Anderson
Which is why, for my two sense of experience, I often suggest that people within first responder relationships actually have that conversation in terms of what is it that you are comfortable with me sharing? And at what point do we say, no, I’m sorry, we’ve hit the line, we’ve hit a moment. And this is where I need to back up a little bit, whether it’s because the spouse is uncomfortable with hearing the stories or I’d like to know more about the basics of each of the stories instead of at length about just the tough one. That, I think, through conversation is what ultimately is necessary to prevent burnout, to prevent the lack of communication in marriages. Why is he pulling away from me? Is he looking at me like a perp?

20:47
Jennifer Anderson
Is he looking at me like, all these pieces of the hesitation is in the spouse and not understanding fully what’s physically happening over the career to that first responder.

20:58
Brent Hinson
Isn’t it funny, though, all the training that is offered for firearms training or Deescalation training, that the one thing they don’t train law enforcement first responder families on is how to deal with certain things. It seems like that would be like a first aid mandatory. Everyone sit down and let’s just get this right off the bat.

21:21
Jennifer Anderson
Yes. That is the operative word. Yes. That is my goal. One of my many but yes is to get into academies and start having those conversations, creating safe spaces for those conversations with spouses as well as the first responders, so they have a better understanding of what they’re doing. Outside of the home and how to support them when they do come home instead of just throwing the kids at them and running out the door. Some of those strategies that might help them transition more easily.

21:49
Michael Warren
I saw a meme the other day on social media that had the two responses I get when I start telling my cop stories. And the top one was a group of guys that were just laughing away, and the bottom one was Steve Harvey going, what is wrong with you? And it’s like those are the two responses. And you know you’ve gone too far at a party when somebody asks you when you start talking, and it’s just completely silent and people are just trying to find a way. I wish I could just be invisible right now and walk. But it’s one of those things that it really is a skill that should be taught.

22:23
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you.

22:23
Michael Warren
Because we become in the first responder world, we become so I hate to use this word, but describe is incestuous. We hang around with cops. We hang around with firefighters. It’s a closed system. And when somehow we escaped the system and we forgot how to work in that environment. Katherinegoing back, the Lt seemed to have mastered being able to go back and forth between the environments, understanding what was appropriate, not only age appropriate, but audience appropriate. That has to be something that your dad learned very quickly that others maybe have not.

23:03
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, I think a big piece of it, to be honest, is that he became a cop when he was 30. And when he became a cop, he already had a college degree in psychology. Because he had gone into the mental health field initially, didn’t work out, so he became a cop as a backup. So from day one, it was a means to an end. Like his job was just a way to make a paycheck, a way to support his family. And he went in with such a strong identity of who he was, what he wanted in life. And he had already been with my mom for a while, unmarried, but they had been together for a while. So they had a solid foundation. They knew how to communicate, how they functioned, things of that nature.

23:46
Katherine Boyle
So when he became a cop, he had such a solid foundation. And I think, obviously, not everyone is going to have that journey. Not everyone’s going to become a cop at 30 years old, but most people become cops so young, and this piece of the training is, to your point, missing. So you come in at 2021 years old, you don’t know how to take care of yourself, let alone anyone else, and it just infiltrates your mind and who you are. And you fall into the brotherhood, sisterhood, the blue linehood, and that’s all you can see. And then that just compiles and piles on top of itself, and it’s just a recipe for disaster if you’re not set up with those tools. And a lot of times they’re just not.

24:32
Brent Hinson
Well, the last time you were here, we had talked about you were Katherinestarting to get into hosting events, and you were kind of revamping your website, and your website is done and up and running, and you’re getting ready to host or co host an event coming up very soon with Jennifer. I think this is a good spot where you can kind of tell us a little bit about beyond the Uniform and its mission. And Dovetail is one of my favorite keywords into talking about a little bit about the workshop, but we also want to know about Jennifer’s organization as well. But we’ll start with a little bit about beyond the Uniform.

25:08
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, absolutely. So, beyond the Uniform, my mission is to support police officers and their families who want to prioritize connection at home. Because, like we’ve talked about, that’s not something that’s addressed in the academy. A lot of times it’s something that when you’re on the inside, you don’t see it. You can’t read the label of the pill box from the inside, right? So when you’re in the thick of it, you don’t really know what’s going on, and no one is talking about it. So I want to bring awareness to this topic that a lot of times the family is suffering, whether it’s recognized, noticed or not. And so I want to help prioritize that home life and provide the tools and the resources and the experts in the field to help facilitate that in police officers today.

25:56
Katherine Boyle
And one way that I’m doing that is through events. The upcoming one that I will be hosting with Jennifer is November 21, and this one happens to be about making holidays special with the law enforcement schedule. So, as you guys probably know, it can be a tricky schedule around the holidays. You never know if you’re going to have to work or if you’re going to get called in. So we really want to host a workshop to help law enforcement families sort of identify traditions that can be unique to their family, different ways that they can sort of navigate the holidays if the police officer has to work and things of that nature. So very excited to be hosting that with Jennifer in a couple of weeks.

26:41
Brent Hinson
And Jennifer, if you would tell us a little bit about your organization and how you two kind of cross paths.

26:49
Jennifer Anderson
Actually, that goes back a little ways here, but long story short, first Responder coaching was established just a couple years ago to use coaching as that proactive piece. As I mentioned a little bit ago, my husband had a mental health break that led to hospitalization, and so I didn’t need to sit on a couch and talk about my childhood. I had to figure out how I was going to pay the bills next month if he wasn’t working. Coaching provided me that level of understanding of where I was now and where I needed to move forward and move through. I became a certified coach and then launched a coaching practice, got connected to the Capitol Police spouses, and from there built this amazing network.

27:31
Jennifer Anderson
We have trained over 60 coaches across the country, working with many departments across Vegas, fire Rescue, a couple of New Jersey. We’ve got some really big projects coming up, which we’re excited about. And so it was through that work I ended up connecting with Katherineand knowing her passion, hearing her story, the way that she shared so much of her upbringing and experiences with the law enforcement community and her realization that it was actually pretty abnormal. And having her come to that realization and then using that as a catalyst to build her own vision and her own mission to help first responder communities and especially our law enforcement create and establish really healthy, meaningful, amazing relationships with something I absolutely wanted to be a partner with. One of our missions is through a nonprofit.

28:26
Jennifer Anderson
Our FRC Foundation is that for every coaching session purchased by a department and organization, we one for one support a spouse or significant other. So that work is incredibly meaningful to me, not just because I was a law enforcement spouse, but because the need is so great, that is such a need for these coaching services. So partnering with Catherine, I’m just honored to have done so far, and excited about our workshop coming up. I’m super pumped about it because I think having some practical applications to the challenges within this community when it comes to holidays, when it comes to scheduling and the challenges around making the time together, that you have quality, even if it’s not a quantity. Right. How do we make sure that quality is there so everyone feels special and a part of the holidays?

29:22
Michael Warren
I think that is such a great topic because I can remember several years ago working midnights, we work twelve, so I’m working the night before Thanksgiving, so work seven P to seven A, get off work and we have one of the. Largest shopping districts in the state of Michigan. And so there’s a lot of mall overtime. And when you’re working on a holiday and it’s overtime, the money is good. And so going up there and starting at 730 half an hour later, but because it was a break, I’m good to go. And working a twelve hour shift there on holiday overtime, it afforded me to be able to do things for my kids that I wouldn’t have been able to do without working that type of overtime. But the cost to it was that I wasn’t spending Thanksgiving with my kids.

30:11
Michael Warren
So Thanksgiving had to be when I was available. And I think that’s a really hard thing, especially for young folks in this profession, because if you do that for extra money, then you don’t become dependent on it. But so many of them that’s what they use for the down payment on a new boat and a new truck. And not just a regular truck, they’ve got the new officer starter pack, new house, new boat, all that type of stuff right there. And then you become dependent on it. And then January rolls around and there’s no overtime. And so I think that right there is such an important topic for us to talk about. So that as Katherineagain going back, talking about when her dad came home, it was all about the family.

30:55
Michael Warren
And if you have the stressor of those financial burdens because you didn’t do it correctly, that just makes you not there because your mind is worrying about paying the bills.

31:05
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, and that’s actually a couple of months ago, back in August, I had hosted another workshop about this topic. Exactly. It was about finances. And what we talked about was how to run a household realistically on a police officer’s salary and not having to rely on that overtime. Because going back, my parents felt very strongly that my dad didn’t want to take on overtime, that he didn’t need, that wasn’t required, or that maybe he wanted to take on overtime to afford Christmas gifts or vacation that year, but he wanted to do it on his terms, not rely on it, like you said. And then you’re riding the gravy train and then it runs out, and now your way of living is not affordable. You can’t live your life anymore.

31:53
Katherine Boyle
So, yeah, I think that also that overtime trap is a whole nother topic that is so important. And I like your point about you worked Thanksgiving and you were able to afford wonderful things, but then you didn’t see your family, and it’s kind of like, which one would you rather?

32:13
Brent Hinson
Well, the name of this online workshop is Making the Holidays Magic as a law enforcement family. It’s going to be hosted on Zoom. It’s Tuesday, November 21. So the question that I have for you, the folks that want to be a part of this, and by the way, we’ll put a direct link where you can register in the show notes of today’s episode. When they go in there, how much do they have to participate? Can they just sit back and watch? Is it interactive to where you want them to? How much do they have to put into because some people they’re skittish or is it one of those things where you’re going to get out what you put in?

32:49
Katherine Boyle
No, it’ll also be recorded. And I know that privacy is a big thing, obviously, in this community. So there will be at the beginning, we’ll explain how to remove your name or remove your video if you want to be more anonymous. To answer your question, it is not a matter of you get out what you put in. This is very much more so presentation style with an opportunity for discussion at the end. So if people want to contribute what has worked for them or ask questions for additional insight or context, there will be time for that. But what we really want to do is just share things that have worked for our families and the families that we know so that we can sort of pass that on to other families to benefit from.

33:36
Michael Warren
If our listeners are thinking, you know what, that sounds really interesting, but I’m not married, I don’t have a significant other, I don’t have kids, I don’t need that. Now’s the time to get that, because the time to learn how to manage that isn’t when you have those dependent on you. It’s better to learn it now so you’re ready when you do. And so I think that I’m speaking correctly here, that even if you’re not managing somebody else’s holiday schedule, this can be incredibly beneficial for you in the future.

34:08
Jennifer Anderson
Absolutely, too, because how others have to adjust, manage schedule, whatever that might look like for the holiday season can be very hard as a first responder that doesn’t have anyone else in the family who understands what it is that schedules are moving through. Right. So having some practical application of ways to communicate your disappointment if something is scheduled, end up during your shift, but it’s very important to you to be a part of that, how do you go into that type of conversation? Absolutely. I echo that no matter what phase of your career you’re in, this is going to be a great workshop to take part.

34:46
Brent Hinson
Know we talked about earlier, Catherine, were saying my perspective changed when it came to those in law enforcement just hearing their stories. One thing that I think we don’t touch on enough, as the daughter of someone in law enforcement, as the wife of someone there that was in law enforcement are the roles that you play because you’re sometimes the silent ones that are affected and sometimes your voices aren’t heard. And that’s got to be incredibly frustrating.

35:16
Jennifer Anderson
You want to take that or you want me to?

35:19
Katherine Boyle
I don’t think that I ever felt unheard. I think beaver Cleaver, what can I say? We really were very lucky, I think. But to your point, it’s hard to navigate. And I think the more people like Jennifer, even platforms like this podcast can bring awareness to these topics and provide tools for the people that are beyond the uniform. On the other side of it, I think is so beneficial, so that you do have the opportunity to learn ways to speak up for yourself or speak up for the relationship, or even speak up for the officer who may or may not see what is happening in his or her life and how to properly communicate them with them. That maybe they should take some time off or pick up a new hobby or whatever that looks like.

36:19
Brent Hinson
But it’s kind of like what you said with your mom when your dad would leave for work. She would say, be careful. What is she dealing with? When her husband leaves the driveway and she says, Be careful? Now, you as at a young age you didn’t understand that impact. But she goes back in the house and she’s in that silent mode of my husband’s out there risking his life. And sometimes you don’t get that perspective, I think.

36:46
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, I think you’re right. And I think for that concept, support systems and community come into it big time. I come from a family of police officers, so my mom’s sisters were also married to cops, so they kind of almost took her under their wing. We spent a lot of time with them when my dad was at work, and they were a community in and of themselves, and she was able to turn to them and talk to them if she was scared, if she was concerned. My dad’s partner and his wife were very close with both of my parents, so she also had that relationship. She could talk to my dad’s partner’s wife about whatever they may have been working on or what was concerning them at the time. And just I think having that outlet is helpful in and of itself.

37:45
Katherine Boyle
And, yeah, I think there’s only so much you can do, right? You’re going to be scared. He’s going out there to put his life on the line. There’s only so much you can do.

37:54
Michael Warren
Jennifer there’s another side, too, because it’s not every day you’re scared. Looking at your website, the First Responder, coaching, saving Lives, marriages and families. And one of the things, looking back in retrospect, was if we’re not communicating with our significant other, with our families, you can kind of tell when that’s happening. Because when you’re gathered with another group of cops, if everything’s an inside joke and nobody else is getting it except for the people that work, you’re probably not communicating properly with your loved one. When the spouses start recognizing that I’m not part of this closed system and my significant other is more comfortable in that system than they are with me. That’s when we start to see relationships break down, isn’t it?

38:45
Jennifer Anderson
Yeah. No, I agree with that. In my particular situation, I was very grateful that he wasn’t necessarily one of the good old boys. He was able to maintain some separation from the cool kids in his work and really focusing when he was at the job, he was on the job. The challenges more came in when things did happen that he didn’t know how to process and didn’t know who to talk to. We, unfortunately, didn’t have a very good community. His uncle was a police officer for a few years, but unfortunately had gotten into an accident and was unable to continue his career. So he could speak with his uncle sometimes, but there was really no one else that understood what our life looked like. There was no real community for us, and so that was a part of the challenge in our situation.

39:36
Jennifer Anderson
But I totally agree with Catherine. Having that level of community, having the ability to share, even if he had been going out with the guys more often, having, like you said, a hobby. Right. We’re having someone else to talk to is so critically important in order to move beyond the uniform. Right. When he medically retired, he’s really still struggling. The 150 sworn officers that he would have died for back in December of 2017, the last six years, he’s only heard from less than a handful of them. So why is that so much is bound in this? Like you said, brotherhood, sisterhood. When it comes down to the challenges of health and wellness, that breaks down, unfortunately. And that’s, I think, exactly what you’re alluding to.

40:24
Michael Warren
It seems like we talk about the family, the thin blue line. It’s us. It’s always us. Until something goes wrong, and then it’s like the person has a communicable disease, right. That I’m scared that if I go and I visit with your husband, OOH, that may rub off on me and I might suffer the same thing. It’s like if an officer is injured, you know what I mean? If I go and I see that right there, or an officer, their relationship with a significant other breaks down. And instead of actually trying to comfort them, we say, well, at least you got the starter wife out of the way. You can start looking for your real wife now.

41:04
Jennifer Anderson
Yeah, well and like we said, the mirror, they didn’t want to put the mirror up and say, hey, yeah, I’m struggling with some of the things that I just saw him do deal with. And the second that mirror goes up, they think that vulnerability is going to weaken their ability to do the job. No. If anything, it strengthens because you’re getting some of the muck out of your head, out of your experiences. You’re moving through the trauma by being vulnerable and having conversations and that’s what’s going to lead to a lifelong career, right? It’s when we stuff it up and stuff it down and suck it up, buttercup. That is ultimately the challenges that were bleed over and cause issues in relationships and all these pieces.

41:46
Michael Warren
And here’s what I wish people would understand. It not only is going to make your career much healthier, it’s going to make your post career that much healthier and happier. How many people do we know in the first responder field that they work their butts off for 25, 30 years so they can get to retirement? And they get to retirement and they have all types of health problems, they die too early or they’re just thinking alone because they’re so miserable, nobody wants to be with them because they failed to cope with things in a healthy way throughout their career. It’s not something that happens when we grow up. It’s part of growing up. And that’s what we need.

42:30
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you for saying that. You’re absolutely right. So within our coaching practice, that’s absolutely something we talk about. What are you doing now to prepare yourself to move through the trauma? So when you get to the end of retirement, we get to that end line, whatever that goal is for you are able to have a healthy, amazing life that you have created through these years to help you move into those next steps and stages. But I hear you.

42:55
Brent Hinson
I want to double back to your online workshop again. It’s called making the holidays magic. As a law enforcement family. It’s Tuesday, November 21 on Zoom. What can folks expect going into it? And once it’s over, what are they going to walk away? What types of knowledge are they going to have after they’re finished?

43:13
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, so they’re going know, walk away with tools that Jennifer herself has used, that my family used growing up, literal traditions that they could implement into their family’s lives, alternative mindsets. One thing that I think is really important is not to use a cliched term, but self care in the sense that you can make those moments where maybe your officer is at work and you’re alone with the kids around the holidays. How can you make that special for just that portion of the family? Even though mom dad is missing, really want to provide tactical tips that people can literally take away and implement into their family’s holidays so that they don’t feel like their kids are missing out on the holidays, so that they don’t feel like they have this strange family life or holiday life.

44:14
Katherine Boyle
One thing that was huge for me was that even though the holidays didn’t always look like everyone else’s in my friend group, they were no less special. It was normalized. Normalizing. My dad’s schedule was a really big part of our upbringing, I think, and normalizing our way of life was really important in how we turned out. And so I think normalizing. This part of the inevitable aspect of the job is really important.

44:44
Michael Warren
So, speaking to that, would you agree that part of it is an unrealistic expectation on the part of family members of what the perfect holidays have to look like? And I’m doing this on purpose. Brent. They go and watch the TikTok. See how I threw in the in front of the TikTok? They go and watch the TikTok and they watch this little 32nd blurb about somebody’s Christmas celebration, and it’s 20 minutes of content that they bowl down to the best 30 seconds, and they think that’s what their holiday has to look like in order for it. And I thought you put it very well. It may not have looked like what others in my friend group, what theirs looked like, but it was no less special. I think it’s about jennifer, I think you said this while ago.

45:33
Michael Warren
It’s about having those conversations so we know what the expectations are before rather than arguing and being disappointed afterwards.

45:42
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. And I think that’s also a good point about the TikTok, because going back to this concept of 24/7 news, we also have 24/7 exposure to the way other people are living their lives. And if we’re constantly looking at that on social media and seeing like, oh, this is what their holidays look like, why can’t mine look like that? And that’s just going to be detrimental.

46:01
Jennifer Anderson
To the Hallmark Channel.

46:05
Michael Warren
The only redeeming quality of the Hallmark Channel is that they celebrate Christmas just about as long as I do. The best thing about October 31 is that it’s followed by November 1, so we can get on with Christmas celebration. I am a Christmas guy. And part of that is borne out of the fact that when I was working, you had to celebrate when you could. And this tends to be a busy time in the first responder field. And so the sooner we can celebrate, the more time that as a family, we can celebrate and have that magic, as you guys put it in the title. It just lasted over a longer period of time, but it was there, available when the family was available.

46:49
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. And being flexible with that and fluid with this concept of celebrating when you can when it makes sense for your family and not really worrying about what your neighbors are doing.

47:00
Michael Warren
Absolutely. The TikTok and the Facebook perhaps have been some of the worst things that have happened to society because it really has put unrealistic expectations, not just in the first responder world.

47:13
Brent Hinson
Well, it’s a highlight reel, basically. Our lives are filled with failures. At least my life is filled with failures all day long. But when you see it on Facebook, you think it’s glamorous. It is not.

47:25
Michael Warren
That I couldn’t be more is. How many takes? How many takes did it get? Yeah.

47:31
Brent Hinson
Mike’s always like, you’re such a great musician. He didn’t see the six times I screwed up trying to upload a know it’s.

47:39
Michael Warren
I’m big in the training of I go to a lot of training. We put on a lot of training. And one of the things I preach is that too often we think that the answers for law enforcement first responder problems have to come from a first responder place. And oftentimes the research has been done elsewhere. And I would propose that a lot of what needs to be done has already been shown to be successful in other fields. We just have to take that and incorporate it into the first responder field, and we’ll be much better off as a profession.

48:14
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you. Because that’s exactly what I felt about coaching during his hospitalization. Like I said, I went through a coaching program, became a coach, and I said, yes, the first responder community needs this desperately. And so that’s exactly the foundation of the reasons why I chose our first responder community to bring coaching into. Because coaching is coaching. We train our coaches to coach anyone at any time about anything. Our training is not specific to the first responder community, but our coaches are.

48:47
Michael Warren
The first responders just want to throw out there. And this is on me. I would have been much more likely to talk to a coach than to talk to a therapist.

48:59
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you.

48:59
Michael Warren
I would have been much more likely to talk to a coach than a psychologist. Listen, coach, I can get into, that’s something I can relate to, and it doesn’t have that same connotation that I have to be vulnerable even though it’s the same stuff. I think that’s a great avenue. So if people want to know more about the coaching, where would they go to get that information?

49:24
Jennifer Anderson
Thank you for asking. Definitely on our website there is information about different coaching options as well as becoming a coach. And there’s a contact form right there. You can certainly send us a message directly from our website. And I’m sure we’ll be putting up some information, including our cell phone number, so even a text message, quick text message that they’ve seen the podcast and are interested in learning more about coaching.

49:47
Brent Hinson
And Catherine, you’ve got a revamped website and you’re really getting into hosting these events. Tell us about your website, because I know it’s up and running now.

49:58
Katherine Boyle
Yes, my website is up and running. Did a little revamp last time I was on the show. It was a little outdated, but it’s up and running now with the new mission. Really want to focus on helping the police officers who want to connect with their families, helping the families who want to connect with their police officer and hosting these events. A couple times a quarter, I’ll be hosting more in person events in the Philadelphia area in the new year. So all of that information will be uploaded on the new and improved website as I finalize details.

50:35
Michael Warren
I just want to throw something out here. What these ladies, what their mission is and the work that they’re doing has everything to do with officer safety. A healthier family makes a less distracted officer at work. And somebody who is less distracted at work because things are bad at the house is someone who is able to be where they are. As they say, wherever you are, be there. Well, when they’re at work, they need to be there because there are dangers. When we have distractions, because there’s problems at home, it makes us less there. It’s about officer wellness, it’s about officer resiliency. But I think that if we framed it more as an officer safety issue, then there might be a little bit less resistance there.

51:21
Brent Hinson
And listen, I’ll put it this way. I know this is law enforcement first responder based, but I think this is knowledge all of us could benefit from. I know if I had some of the information in my head at 46, at 25, I would have done a lot of things differently and not had to learn the hard way. You know what I’m saying?

51:39
Michael Warren
There’d have been a lot more highlight reels, wouldn’t there?

51:42
Brent Hinson
Yes, there would.

51:44
Michael Warren
As we’re wrapping things up here, I really appreciate the work that you do, Jennifer. I appreciate and I hope you pass along to your husband how much I appreciate his service. It’s got to be tough to be the spouse of a wounded officer. And those wounds are deep and they’re real. They often are longer lasting than physical wounds. So please pass along my thanks to him for his service. Thank you for your service. Standing with him, the easy way out would be to have gone, and you didn’t do that. And not only did you not do that, but you have made it your mission to help others. So thank you for what you do. Catherine, it was good talking to you again, please pass along my best to your dad. Tell him that I strive to be more like him each and every day.

52:32
Michael Warren
And I mean that seriously because I so enjoyed the conversation with him, because he just had it together and there are people out there. The thing I think that made the most impact with people I talked to that listen to the episode was the fact that they realize they don’t have an excuse. It doesn’t matter if other people that you work with aren’t getting it right. The fact that your dad got it right shows that it can be done. And so there’s no excuse. So please pass along my best to him, and my best to you. So excited about the workshop. We’re going to make sure we get that out on our social media, try to draw people to it, because what we can do up front saves us time on the back.

53:15
Brent Hinson
Yeah. The name of the organization, Catherine’s, is beyond the Uniform and jennifer’s is first responder coaching. You will find links and all supplemental material to both organizations in the show, notes for this episode and a direct link to the workshop, which again, as I mentioned, I can feel my DJ roots coming back. It’s coming up Tuesday, November 21. It’s an 08:00 eastern standard time start time, so that’s eight in the east, seven central. And I’m not going to do the rest because my brain will explode. But it’s called making the holidays magic as a law enforcement family, and you two will be co hosting that.

53:54
Brent Hinson
And we wish you the best of luck and please keep in contact with us of any event you have coming up, because again, we like to provide solutions here on the podcast, and you guys are at the forefront of providing those solutions.

54:08
Katherine Boyle
Thank you guys so much.

54:10
Jennifer Anderson
Yes, it was incredible. I appreciate it’s.