The Law Enforcement Family: Balancing Work And Home Life

00:13
Brent Hinson
We’re a podcast going beyond the bats to allow members of law enforcement public safety and first response place to tell their stories and also talk about the cases that have impacted their lives.

00:24
Brent Hinson
Glad to have you along.

00:25
Brent Hinson
I’m your co host, Bert Henson, and we’re covering a topic in this episode that’s really been on our radar for.

00:32
Brent Hinson
Quite some time, and that is the.

00:34
Brent Hinson
Impact a career in law enforcement has on family members, spouses, children, mothers, fathers. I think it’s going to be an interesting discussion. As a matter of fact, over the next two episodes, we’re going to examine the various dynamics that are involved in working to maintain a healthy balance between the times when you’re in uniform and those moments when you’re not on call, when you’re just a parent or a spouse. And today we’ve got two guests lined up, father and a daughter. They’re going to help navigate that topic.

01:05
Brent Hinson
In this episode and we’ll talk more.

01:06
Brent Hinson
About that in just a moment. But first, welcome in our host. He is a 23 year veteran of the Novi Police Departments and an all around good guy. He is your host, Mr. Michael Warren. How are you, sir?

01:20
Michael Warren
Buddy, I am doing great, and I’m excited about today and I want to get that out front. I’m excited about learning about policing in Pennsylvania. And the reason why I’m interested in that is my college roommate was from Lansdale, Pennsylvania, and so I’ve been to his house, in fact, for his wedding gift when he got married. My gift to them was I drove their U Haul truck from Gulfport, Mississippi to Lansdale, Pennsylvania. And for our listeners who are geographically challenged, that’s a long way. So I’m interested in hearing about what policing is like in the Keystone State.

01:59
Brent Hinson
And you’ll have some perspective, I think, at least with your career in law enforcement and maybe the impact that career has had on your family members, a direct influence as well. Right.

02:09
Michael Warren
I think what is often lost is the impact that it has on family members. It’s unfortunate, but we talk about the law enforcement heroes, but a lot of times the true heroes are the people behind the people wearing the badge. And so I think it’s going to be a good perspective. So why don’t you go ahead and tell us about our guests and let’s get them out here.

02:28
Brent Hinson
Well, as I mentioned earlier, our guests today are father and daughter. He is a 30 year veteran of the Philadelphia Police Department, having retired as a lieutenant in charge of the child abuse section of that department’s, SVU. She is the host of the podcast Life Lessons with the Lt’s Daughter, which focuses on examining topics that explore various subjects from those who serve in uniform every day. Including the very thing we’re going to talk about today, finding that balance between work life and home life. It’s our pleasure to welcome to the podcast michael Boyle and his daughter Catherine Boyle. Thank you guys for joining us and being on between the Lines today.

03:04
Michael Boyle
Hello.

03:05
Katherine Boyle
Thank you guys for having us. This is so much fun.

03:07
Michael Warren
Lieutenant, I’m going to start with you. All right? I ask a lot of our guests this, and it always is interesting to me. What was it that drew you to a career in law enforcement to begin with?

03:22
Michael Boyle
Well, that was not my first choice.

03:26
Michael Warren
You’re not about to tell us that you wanted to be a hose jockey, did you?

03:29
Michael Boyle
No. Okay.

03:31
Michael Warren
Whatever was first choice is good.

03:33
Michael Boyle
I’m good with it, actually. I have a degree in clinical psychology, and I worked in that field for quite a few years until they were about 1979. And then there was a cutback in federal funding. The hospital I was working for wanted to cut my salary. I said, no, just cut me because I’m out. So I then bartended for a year, and I took the police test basically on a whim. I did well, and within a few months, I was in the police academy. And I really thought that I was going to be there that long because I had already applied as a drug salesperson for Merck, and I had that job nailed. Well, that didn’t work out. And so now, many years later, 40 some years later, I’m a retired 30 year old veteran 30 year veteran of the Philadelphia Police Department. Now, that all being said, I followed in the path of my older brothers.

04:26
Michael Boyle
My oldest brother became a cop in 1966, and I think he did that for the money and the security and all that and the pension. My middle brother came back from Vietnam and he joined my older brother, but actually he was retired on a disability with diabetes. So he’s been off the job for quite some time. But anyway, I just kind of followed in line with my two brothers.

04:49
Michael Warren
You brought it up and we’ve talked about it on this show before. A lot of people in policing were willing to forego short term prosperity for long term security, the pensions and that type of thing. And I don’t know what it’s like in your state, but in Michigan, one of the things that they started going after 2007, 2008 economic downturn were pensions. And so it’s like, man, you’re wanting to take the short term prosperity and the long term security away. And here we are 1516 years later, and we have a bunch of agencies that are struggling to hire enough people and enough qualified people.

05:29
Michael Boyle
Exactly. I think that’s an epidemic that’s affecting everybody, every police agency throughout the country. The fact that the media is really kind of anti police, generally speaking, there’s a lot of anti police kind of fervor throughout the communities, and there’s, like, a lot of anti police prosecutors out there, so there’s cops are saying it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. It’s not worth putting my life on the line. It’s not worth it for the hours, it’s not worth it for the sacrifice. And if you’re not going to pay me well, and if you’re not going to reward me for a 20 year career, then screw it. I’ll do something else.

06:07
Michael Warren
And you probably were a lot like me. I was willing to put up with a lot of stuff because it benefited my family. But the folks coming in right now, they’re not getting that long term benefit for their family. That’s asking for too many sacrifices.

06:21
Michael Boyle
I have to agree with that. The fact is, our health plan in Philadelphia was the best recently. I’m of an age now. I’m no longer covered by that, and I’m now a Medicare guy. And I find that shocking because there was once upon a time I just went and showed my Blue Cross card with the police department. Bing. I was golden. Didn’t pay a dime. I did that for over 30 years because I had extended beyond my retirement age, but now I don’t have that anymore. So now I have to join everybody else, the ranks of everyone else, and it’s a shock.

06:56
Michael Warren
Catherine, I’m not going to be rude and ask how old you are, but based upon how young you look, you probably weren’t around when your dad first started in the career. Am I correct?

07:07
Katherine Boyle
You are correct.

07:09
Michael Warren
But when you were born, though, he was already into the career. So for a long period of time, this was all that you knew. As far as dad I mean, dad went and he did his job as a police officer. You didn’t know him when he was doing his clinical work. What’s your first memory of your dad when you realize, hey, you know what? My dad’s a cop.

07:32
Katherine Boyle
I don’t know if I ever had a moment where I really put it together, because everything was always so normal growing up. I knew that he had some accessories that weren’t allowed touch and that were hidden away from us and stuff like that. I don’t think I really put it together until there was a year that he was on TV a lot, because I think his captain didn’t like to be interviewed on the news. So he took a lot of the interviews on the news that year.

08:03
Michael Boyle
Yeah. Especially with the sensitive issue of sex crimes and child abuse. Yes. She was like, phobic. So I was out there. They threw me out there and said, hey, you got it.

08:12
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. So I think that year when he was on the news a lot, being interviewed about these topics, and we got to see him on the news, and people in the neighborhood actually recognized him from the news. I think that’s kind of when it clicked.

08:25
Brent Hinson
What he did, either did it have a positive or negative effect, seeing if you go to school and your dad’s on TV all the time, do the other kids, were they excited we saw your dad on TV, or the opposite of that?

08:39
Katherine Boyle
No, they were excited. I’m older than I look, and I grew up in a time where police were very much looked up to and heroic. And I even remember that year trickortreating. We were home and kids were still coming to our house, and we had a neighbor kid come to our house and recognize him from the news, and he made a big deal. He was like, oh, you’re that guy from the news. I see you all the time. So it was definitely something that kids were excited about.

09:07
Michael Boyle
Plus, I think I understand that. The area where we lived, there were a lot of civil servants, there were a lot of firefighters, there were a lot of police. There were a lot of just general, middle class civil servants in that area. So we didn’t have a lot of blowback, or negative blowback, I should say.

09:21
Michael Warren
Now, Michael, I know it’s hard to tell in this little screen that we have in front of us, but I have a face made for radio, so I wasn’t run out in front of the TV cameras a whole lot during my career. But it’s one of those things that speaking on behalf of the police department and really you’re speaking on behalf of society and trying to talk about the topic of child sexual abuse, to me, that seems like that would be an incredibly difficult thing to talk about, especially if you have kids of your own.

09:54
Michael Boyle
Yeah, it was. There were times that I was dancing around my head because I didn’t go in with any prepared remarks other than some facts. So I had to be very careful and circumspect and what I disclosed for a lot of reasons, for legal reasons, ethical reasons, and just for common sense reasons. So it was really kind of you had to satisfy the media and their questions, but at the same time, you had to be almost vanilla without being vanilla. Makes sense. Vanilla fudge.

10:27
Michael Warren
It’s funny you should say that. So on my walk this morning, I’m listening to a book by Colin Powell called It Work for Me, and the topic this morning was talking about how he handled the media. And he said, I always had to remind myself and remind others that the reporters are the one asking the questions, but I’m using them to speak to the public. And I would imagine that was something that you had to do in your position because of the type crimes, because when something bad happens, we want people to be aware, but we don’t want them paranoid. We don’t want them thinking that every single person is trying to s***** your kid, throw them into sex slavery.

11:05
Michael Boyle
Yeah. At the time that I was in that period of my career, although I was in charge of the commander of the Child Abuse Unit, I was also the administrative lieutenant for Special Victims Unit. So I had to do all the PR for the rapes, the adult issues, the child issues. Basically anything they handled, that was me.

11:25
Michael Warren
Now, we’re kind of going chronologically out of order here, but I think it’s an important point to bring out here. Catherine, knowing what he was investigating at this time of his career. How did he handle that with you? Like I said, we don’t want the public to be paranoid, but it’s hard when you’re investigating those type things over and over that as a parent, you don’t become super protective of your kids.

11:49
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, it’s interesting, too, because I don’t know what he did to cope, but when were growing up, we had almost more freedom than a lot of our friends. I’m not sure where that stemmed from, but our parents, really, they raised us with values and gave us a lot of freedom and kind of trusted us to be trustable. And I would say that were.

12:15
Michael Warren
But your dad didn’t chime in right there to validate that. Just throwing that out there.

12:23
Michael Boyle
I’ll say this, there are some news media that broadcasts that I didn’t want them to see, let’s put it that way. There were some of them were really sensitive and ugly. I dressed it up, but they were still ugly.

12:35
Michael Warren
So, Brent, right now, what’s the name of that movie that’s really popular right now on human trafficking? And I can’t remember the name of.

12:44
Brent Hinson
The Sounds of Freedom.

12:45
Michael Warren
Sounds of freedom.

12:47
Michael Boyle
Powerful film.

12:48
Michael Warren
And that’s where I kind of struggle with it’s. Almost like national security secrets. The American public needs to have an idea kind of what’s going on so that they know government’s working. If we expose too much, we become a society that is we don’t trust anybody. I don’t know where that fine line is when it comes to this particular topic here.

13:09
Michael Boyle
I don’t know. I’m sure you’ve probably seen some of the videos from the, quote, kensington Avenue Experience in Philadelphia. Have you seen that? Yeah, that’s pretty disgusting stuff. I remember a couple of times we would have a report of a rape of a young woman and we find out that she’s from an upper class neighborhood. I’m not from originally from Kensington, but now she’s living in Kensington and she’s been there for a month. We had a photograph of her trying to find her, but we didn’t recognize her. You know why? Because in a month she aged ten years. And that’s sad. And I’m going back now. 20 years ago, this was it wasn’t nearly as bad then as it is today.

13:48
Michael Warren
Absolutely.

13:48
Michael Boyle
Today it’s catastrophic.

13:52
Brent Hinson
Based on the things that I’ve seen Catherine write about, it sounds like you were able to put up a shield between your work life of who you were on the job and who you were at home. How did you find a way to balance that? Because a lot of times in the conversations I’ve had with officers, especially on this podcast or went to Aylita, sometimes they had a hard time finding that balance. So how are you able to do that?

14:16
Michael Boyle
Well, I think some of the police officers, male and female, they come into the job at a younger age. I came into the job at 31. I had already experienced quite a few things, including working with special needs people, mhmor patients at a hospital where I worked. So I had quite a few experiences. And I didn’t grow up rich either. I grew up grounded, very well grounded with my parents. I didn’t have that hard of a time separating my work life from my personal life. When I put on the uniform, I was a cop. And I have to say this, I was only in uniform as a police officer for five years and a lieutenant for two years. The rest of my 30 years, I was in the detective bureau. And so that does give you some insulation, I have to tell you that from the 911 calls and all that.

15:04
Michael Boyle
You’d have to speak to that, mike, I’m sure you’d agree, but I was able to compartmentalize, and that’s critical. You have to do that. You have to leave work at work and go home and stay at home and stay in that zone.

15:16
Brent Hinson
It sounds incredibly easy in theory, but I have to imagine it just can’t be, especially if you catherine I don’t know if you can speak to it, but was he able it’s like a lot of those times people grow up and say, I didn’t realize I was poor. They were able to cover that up. Was that kind of the thing with your dad being an officer like this? Was he able to shield you from that life that he had to delete at work?

15:38
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, I would say absolutely. I didn’t even recognize that this concept of police officers being disconnected at home or having trouble sort of compartmentalizing, I didn’t even realize that existed or happened until I got much older. Growing up, he was always there, he was always engaged, he always played with us. We never would have known that the job he did was experience any kind of trauma or anything.

16:12
Michael Warren
Catherine, I’m going to throw this out here as a guy with a lot of life experience, which Michael, is a politically correct way of saying, I’m old. I’m not going to argue with you about that. But one of the things I think it’s becoming more difficult for a law enforcement professional to be able to have that time where, okay, this is my family time and this is work time, and it’s because of cell phones. When I first became a detective. We had these little flip phones with the track phones and it looked like were talking about Star Trek before we got on, started recording. It looked like that little thing. And we thought that was it. We also had pagers, then finally got the pager where you could actually see scores from NFL games on there. That instant communication, though, has really blurred the lines between being on duty and being off duty.

17:11
Michael Warren
And I think it’s becoming increasingly difficult. And then you add on the staffing shortages that we talked about where there are fewer people that still have to do the job that you were doing. I have to think that probably has a negative impact on those still on the job.

17:25
Michael Boyle
I have to agree 1000% on that when I come on. You didn’t have a cell phone, you didn’t have a pager and you didn’t have a walkie talkie. Your radio was in your car.

17:37
Michael Warren
You’re right. You’re older. We had walkie talkies. They may not have been very good.

17:44
Michael Boyle
But we had them. Well, we had five in our district. Five. And they were only given to the people on the beat. People in the vehicles did not get them. They were the big bricks. I remember one time and Katie’s heard this story before, but it’s worth selling. My partner and I were driving a wagon, an EPW an emergency patrol wagon, patty wagon. And we smelled this awful odor, smell like cat pea, which, if you know what that is, right? I didn’t at the time because I was a little naive, but my partner says, now somebody’s cooking. All right, so anyway, we traded in our marked vehicle for an unmarked vehicle. And we came across the house. There were a bunch of guys on the porch. Hey, say, guys, you live there? Yeah. This is 03:00 in the morning. Yeah, we live here. What’s the address?

18:33
Michael Boyle
So, of course, we go into the house and they’re cooking, like, all kinds of meth in there. But we don’t have a radio for backup. There had to be 20 people in the house. And we don’t know if they’re armed. We don’t know any. And all we got is two six shooters between us. So Bill, my partner, said here, he gave me his gun. I put his gun in my left arm, I put my hand and I put my gun in my right hand. And he went out to get backup. That’s how primitive it was in 1982.

19:00
Michael Warren
I have to show my ignorance here, okay? These are the Philadelphia police stories that I know, okay? I can remember that shows you how the human brain is weird. I can remember a cops episode from it has to be 30 years ago now. And I just remember they had to go into this barber shop where there was this large man who was completely naked and sweating. And they go in and they start trying to wrestle with this guy. And I was thinking to myself, because that’s back towards when I’m starting my career. I’m thinking, you know what, maybe this ain’t the career for me because I ain’t for rolling around on the floor like that. Exactly. It’s like, why do people do that? It’s like the worst thing. But then the other thing is, one of my favorite authors is a guy named WB. Griffin, and he actually had a series on the Philadelphia fictional series.

19:55
Michael Warren
And so he always one of the places, the Philadelphia Highway Patrol. And I never understood how a city police department could have a highway patrol, but I think they wore, like, the high boots and stuff like that.

20:08
Michael Boyle
Used to call them the bootcups.

20:11
Michael Warren
Probably for more than one reason, I’m just guessing. Yeah, I guess that’s another question. Well, why did you choose Philadelphia?

20:17
Michael Boyle
I grew up.

20:18
Michael Warren
So you knew it?

20:19
Michael Boyle
I knew it. I knew Philadelphia, I knew the neighborhoods, I pretty much knew all the streets. I was familiar with everything, and it was my hometown, and it still is. Even though I’m that side now, it still is my hometown because I still work there.

20:32
Michael Warren
I’m going to throw this out here. You grew up there, so you’ve got no excuse. Okay. Just seeing how Philadelphia sports fans respond, you would have to know that it’s going to cause issues for the police at some point, yet you still chose to do that. In our line of work, that’s what we call a clue and perhaps one that should have been paid attention to.

20:54
Michael Boyle
Well, I only had the experience of dealing with a sports celebration. It was 93 when the Sixers won. I think it was 93, 83. I’m sorry, that was an unpleasant experience from a police perspective. It was great for the fans, but not so great for a cop.

21:12
Michael Warren
You talk about that particular experience, and so, Catherine, I’m going to bring it back over to you for a second, because one of the things I struggled with in the past few years after I retired were when all the riots were going on. And if your mom or your dad is a police officer, and you know, that night after night, they’re going out there and they’re being deployed to these front lines for these riots, I can’t help but think that would have had a tremendous impact. And so here in your dad taught, he describes 1983 celebration as an unpleasant experience. Okay, well, these weren’t celebrations. What’s it like for a kid knowing what your parents are going out there to do?

21:58
Katherine Boyle
Well, during the riots actually is kind of why I embarked on this journey, to find a way that as a civilian, I can support police officers. Because during the riots, I lived in New York City and I had friends who were participating in the riots. To your point, for me, it was really hard to see the way they were being treated, because I only saw them as who they actually were when they went home, as mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters. And so the riots were really challenging for me to watch and for me to see people that I once cared about participate in them. And that’s how this even got started, that I decided I need to do something to support not only these police officers, but the families who are also experiencing this.

22:42
Michael Warren
When this kicked off, did you lose any friends over the fact that your dad was a retired cop or your stance on your view of policing? Did that have a negative impact on your relationships with some folks?

22:56
Katherine Boyle
A couple, but only one good friend. Did I lose the rest? I would have called more of acquaintances, and I didn’t really bat an eye.

23:04
Michael Warren
And Brent and I, we have this discussion offline a lot. It seems that we have become a society where people are incapable of disagreeing and maintaining a relationship, being able to speak about it and have that type of discourse. So it seems like that what you’ve undertaken is an attempt to have that discourse because we desperately need it.

23:28
Michael Boyle
Absolutely. I was listening to a radio broadcast. Rama Swami, the guy who’s running for president, he was giving a speech. Someone and somebody stood up. A woman stood up and was yelling about the right to have an abortion and so on and so forth. And she was loud and kind of disruptive, but he didn’t have her thrown out. He asked her to come up to the stage so they could have an exchange of ideas and discuss it. And at the end of it, she was calm, and they both agreed to disagree. That’s what america is about.

23:58
Michael Warren
It’s supposed to be.

23:59
Michael Boyle
That’s what it always was. I’m in my 7th decade.

24:04
Michael Warren
Okay, well, I wasn’t a math major. Stand by for a second. Let me count that out.

24:10
Michael Boyle
Yeah. Well into my 7th decade. But anyway, I think it’s it’s.

24:14
Brent Hinson
More or less become you have to see things from my point of view and agree with my point of view instead.

24:19
Michael Boyle
Or you’re canceled.

24:20
Brent Hinson
Yeah, I agree with Mike, and I disagree on several topics, but we are able to talk things out, and we oftentimes will walk away saying, I don’t agree, but I still love the guy. That’s just how I want our society to be.

24:33
Michael Boyle
That’s how it shouldn’t be. Well, I can’t say it always was. That’s the aspiration. That’s the goal of America.

24:40
Michael Warren
I believe one of the things that I really enjoy are those discourses where you find out areas that you agree that you didn’t know about. Like, I have to throw this out here. Brent and our executive producer, Aaron, they run another podcast called Crossing of the Streams, and it’s a music podcast. And I found out that Brent and I both actually enjoy the music of Celine Dion preach. It’s just another unifying thing, but we never would have found if weren’t sitting and talking about this. I was speaking at Aileita this past year, and one of the things that I was asked about was, what are you doing to broaden your perspective? And I’ve made a real effort over the past year to try and seek out things, topics that I’m interested in, but I research them from the perspective that I disagree from. And I found that, hey, I may not agree with everything on the other side, but I may say, you know what?

25:36
Michael Warren
I think that one right there, that might be worthwhile in checking out. But it can’t come about if we’re unwilling to listen to each other.

25:43
Michael Boyle
Exactly.

25:44
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. And I will say, while I lost several acquaintances and one friend, I have had some good conversations around the topic. And I do have some people in my circle who don’t necessarily agree with me completely or love police. They see the benefits in funding the police, they see the benefits in supporting the police, and they see it from a perspective that’s more or less, if we can support them, then they can show up better for their job and there will be more positive experiences, hopefully more positive experiences portrayed in the news or in the media.

26:23
Michael Warren
One of our previous guests was a retired Kansas City police officer, Chip Hew, and he does some work now with the Arbinger Institute. And their basic premise is that we need to see people as people, not as objects. And I couldn’t agree more. And in fact, in classes I teach as a listen, if you want to be safer as a police officer, see people as people. Because if you see them as objects, you see them as less than and your mind automatically drops, you’re prepared to state. So that’s an officer safety thing. On the flip side of that, if your parent is a police officer, it’s much easier to see police officers as people rather than as objects. And a lot of folks in society, I think, are struggling right now with seeing police, and not just police, a lot of authority figures as people rather than as objects.

27:13
Michael Warren
And it’s negatively impacting society.

27:16
Michael Boyle
Yeah, absolutely. We talked about the culture of a police officer being kind of isolated from community. They become part of their own kind of subculture. I was 31 when I got on the job I had then and I have now, the same friends I had as when I was six years old. Wow. I did not go into that rabbit hole of being only a cop going out after four to twelve or for a couple of drinks. I didn’t fall into that. That’s the divorce that has to happen for police. They have to get out of that role. Once they put that uniform away into the locker, they’re no longer. A cop, although they’re still going to respond if they see something. But they shouldn’t have that cop mentality at that time. Now they have to go home, take the kid to the Little League, the daughter to dance or modeling.

28:09
Michael Boyle
Modeling. And that’s what they have to do. And take the wife out to dinner. I mean, if they don’t do that, they’re damaging themselves and their relationship.

28:22
Michael Warren
Doctors don’t just hang out with doctors. They go home and they hang around with people from other walks of life. Again, if somebody falls out, they’re going to do something to help it just like a police officer would, but they’re not looking for somebody to fall out. And I think a lot of police officers, they don’t really have off duty time because they’re constantly looking for somebody to do something wrong.

28:48
Brent Hinson
And I think I even said that in one of our previous episodes. I said, how do you take that wisdom that you have of being a 30 year officer and plant that into the mind of a 20 year old? And you can’t. Sometimes it just takes that experience of life to learn those lessons.

29:04
Michael Boyle
I guess I think you’re right. It does take the experience on the street. It takes the experience in life. I mean, there were times that I taught at the Philadelphia Police Academy, and I tried to import those ideas into the minds of these young people. Did it work? Who knows? My family has experienced some pretty serious tragedies. My oldest nephew was gunned down. He was actually one year on the police department. He was 21 years old, right? He had stopped a stolen car. The guy jumped out of the stolen car, jumped onto the police car before Danny could even get out of the car and fired 15 rounds into the car, one of them hit him in the head. That was 32 years ago. So we’ve had some tragedies, but we’ve dealt with them as a family and as one.

29:52
Michael Warren
Again, it’s a sign of me getting older. But recently, there was the young female officer up in Vermont that was killed. Oh, my goodness.

30:01
Michael Boyle
19 years old.

30:02
Michael Warren
19 years old. And I had to stop looking at it because it was just wrenching at my gut. Years old. Hadn’t even been to the police academy yet.

30:13
Michael Boyle
No, she was like a part time.

30:15
Michael Warren
Recruit waiting to go to the police academy.

30:18
Michael Boyle
Yeah. My oldest brothers joined the police tour in Philadelphia at 19. Now, they don’t allow that anymore, but back in 1966, they did. He was just a kid with pimples, and he’s carrying bigger than him.

30:36
Michael Warren
It’s crazy. Now, Catherine, I’m going to share a little story here with you. My grandfather was a Georgia State Patrolman for 30 years, and so I love talking to my mom about her experiences as the daughter of police officer. Now, granted, at the time, she was living in a much smaller city than Philadelphia. She was in a little town down in Georgia, but she said, for the love of everything that’s good and right. I couldn’t do anything without my dad hearing about it. It’s like the entire town was a bunch of snitches. Apparently, her and her friend, they got a hold of some cigarettes or something like that, and it’s like, before it’s even done, they’re showing up. Did you ever have that happen with you where it’s like you’re trying to get and don’t go into specifics. He doesn’t know yet. Okay. Where it’s like, man, if dad finds out about this, things are going to turn bad.

31:30
Katherine Boyle
No.

31:34
Brent Hinson
There’S got to be a sibling.

31:37
Michael Warren
Do you have siblings?

31:38
Michael Boyle
Yes.

31:39
Michael Warren
Just whatever you say here, just lay it one of them. I’ll know what you but just lay it one of them.

31:45
Katherine Boyle
Well, so growing up in Philadelphia, it’s such a big city, I don’t think it ever would have gotten back to him. But I also was a really boring, really well behaved child, so I don’t know, maybe you should interview one of my siblings. You won’t be able to get an.

32:04
Michael Warren
It’S an interesting thing to me, and Brent, I think, has seen it how we’ve noticed that there tends to be a legacy of public service in a lot of families that we have on here. One of the things that worries me are the number of cops who now, when their interview, would say, if my kid wanted to be a cop, I’d say, not a chance. In the pits of Hades would I want that to happen.

32:28
Michael Boyle
No.

32:28
Katherine Boyle
He’s always said, ever since were little, weren’t to be cops.

32:32
Michael Boyle
No.

32:32
Katherine Boyle
Never.

32:33
Michael Boyle
No. Katie went through the Civilian Police Academy in New York, and Katie’s all five foot tall, pushing it.

32:40
Michael Warren
You’re standing up right now, then.

32:43
Michael Boyle
And I was okay with the Civilian Police Academy to learn the experience, to see the shoot, don’t shoot experience and all that. I was okay with that, but that’s where it stopped. Our son Michael, I think he was inclined to want to be a cop, but by God’s grace, he’s colored blind. He couldn’t pass the test. He’s a nurse now at a local trauma center. He’s doing great. And her oldest daughter, she never even thought about being a cop. She was a little bit more of a renegade.

33:14
Michael Warren
That’s the one I should interview, then. What you’re saying.

33:19
Brent Hinson
Based on what? The career that you’ve had and the interactions that you’ve talked about, it sounds like that there wasn’t a lot of change between who you were as a cop and then once you retired, Catherine, you didn’t notice a difference once you retired, like, things like a shroud came down. He was just the same person. Right. And I would say that based I don’t know. I don’t have any scientific evidence. But is that the norm in policing? Is that people can find that balance, or is it the opposite of that. And what are you finding in the community that you’re involved in?

33:49
Katherine Boyle
I mean, I would say most of the time it’s the opposite. I think it really goes back to that idea that he had an identity before he became a cop. So his whole identity wasn’t wrapped up in this career. So when he retired, it wasn’t like, I have no identity now. I mean, he also retired and then went on to work in a similar profession. But I think what a lot of people kind of struggle with that I’m seeing is once they retire, they don’t know what to do because all they know is policing. All they know is being a hero and saving and doing that kind of thing. And once they retire, it’s kind of like, well, what now? I don’t have civilian skills. I can’t just go and start pushing paper after having this incredible career.

34:37
Michael Warren
We’ve talked about the book several times on our podcast emotional Survival for Law Enforcement by Dr. Kevin Gilmartin. For anybody that’s listening out there that you’re in law enforcement, you have family in law enforcement, you’re thinking about doing it, whatever. It’s a fantastic book because I think you described it perfectly right there. It’s not what I do. It’s who I am. And if I cease to be that police officer, it’s almost like I cease to exist. Michael, I’ll talk to you for a second. Remember Bear Bryant?

35:08
Michael Boyle
Sure.

35:08
Michael Warren
It was like, months after he retired, he died, and it’s like his entire life was wrapped up into being this college football coach. And you see that so often in law enforcement. And I get it. It’s so hard because what law enforcement does is noble and is valuable. It has tremendous meaning, but it can’t be everything, correct?

35:32
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. And at the end of the day, it’s a job. As noble as it is and as difficult and incredible as it is and all the lives you’re saving, it’s still a job.

35:43
Brent Hinson
Now you run the podcast that you do and also the Courageous Ones website that you’re doing, the community that you’re involved in, how are you able to navigate through this topic with people who have a hard time with it and that say, this is my identity and they have a hard time kind of shredding that off of their being?

36:01
Katherine Boyle
I think it’s just a lot of open dialogue. There are some people who struggle with it and might take a little extra time. And I’m not a police officer, so I try to be very sensitive and very forward with that concept that I’m not a police officer, and I’ve never been in their shoes. So if they’re coming to me, if they’re inquiring about the community, then they want to find a way to figure out how they can get to the point where they recognize who they are outside of the job and who they are once they retire. On the other side of things. And so if they’re open to it, then we can have a great conversation or I can point them in the direction of some resources who can kind of help them even further.

36:49
Brent Hinson
Because I guess with a lot of times it’s much easier to do that when someone’s 21 rather than they’re 61, when they have to learn on the back side of things.

36:58
Michael Boyle
It’s difficult for police, for a lot of people, but for police in general, to accept or admit weakness. And if there can be an exchange of information or a dialogue between police officers who have these kinds of doubts and issues. And that’s what I think Kate is trying to instigate here, is to try to get that dialogue going so that everybody knows that the challenges that they face are all pretty much the same challenges, but also so are the same responses to those challenges. And showing insulation is not necessarily a weakness, or rather, it is a weakness, I should say.

37:39
Michael Warren
Catherine it’s almost like because I love the thin blue line, I love the concept of standing between a society and chaos. But I think that as a profession, many times we have separated ourselves from everybody, not just the bad guys, but also the good folks. And it’s like it’s us against the world to our own detriment. And it sounds like what you’re trying to be is that bridge between the good people and the law enforcement community, because we’re both better if we’re together rather than separated.

38:14
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, and I think that also goes back to what you mentioned earlier about how the public is having trouble seeing police officers as human beings. And I think in some cases, police officers experience that, too. They see themselves as police officers. They have trouble or hesitations about kind of getting in touch with that more human side and being more open. And to your point, mingling with the average people and people who are not on the police force and who might not know what they’re going through. And yeah, what I really want to do is sort of open up to my dad’s point, open up that dialogue that you might not want to go out drinking after work. Maybe you want to go home, maybe you want to know how to decompress. Maybe you don’t want to struggle with the things you’re seeing and you don’t want to cope with it with alcohol.

39:06
Katherine Boyle
Maybe you feel uncomfortable expressing that because you’re the only one in your department who feels like that, or you think you’re the only one in your department who thinks like that. So really just giving permission for these people to see and know and seek out a way to cope and to be present at home and to really open their arms and their hearts to their families and their loved ones and.

39:31
Michael Boyle
Still be effective as police officers.

39:33
Michael Warren
Yeah, exactly. It’s not an either or choice. It’s and Michael, back in the day, we talked about choir practice.

39:43
Michael Boyle
You.

39:43
Michael Warren
Talked about PO, B, the parking lot beers. But participating in that, though, what was lost was the quality of the time that you spent with your family. And the worst shift were afternoon shifters. You go and you work a three to eleven or four to midnight, and it’s like, well, the family’s at home, they’re already in bed anyway, I might as well go out drinking. But then you don’t get up as early the next day. Or if you do get up, you’re hungover and you’re tired. And so the quality of time that you have with a family is negatively impacted and becomes the way that you live. It’s a terrible way to live.

40:23
Brent Hinson
But just asking. So if you don’t participate in those types of activities with your brothers and sisters in the uniform, are you looked at as an outsider, then you don’t have that same kind of bonding experience, and you’re foregoing that for time with the family. Maybe I’m just curious.

40:38
Michael Boyle
There no in five years in Patrol, I think I went to two post four to twelve parties. Two. Neither one could I enjoy, so I blew it off every time. Even as a supervisor, I blew off most of the post shift fors was I ever seen as an outsider? No, not at all. Because when I was at work, I was fully engaged with everybody there. I was your backup, I was your supervisor, I was your helper, I was your mentor. If you want to be insulated unto yourself, well, that’s going to bleed over into your actual shift, and then you will be named.

41:21
Michael Warren
Yes, I amazed the number of times when cops that have lived that lifestyle, where they’ve gone, they’re all about hanging out and having the drinking parties and stuff like that, and then somebody starts talking to them, hey, you really need to engage and be involved with people who aren’t cops. When you watch them in those situations, it’s like a junior high dance. Everybody’s awkward, nobody’s wanting to look at each other. You don’t know how to start the conversation or whatever. If we’re honest with each other as a profession, if you ask anybody, hey, where do you want to be in 20 years? What do they say? Want to be retired. But yet we are infinitely unprepared for retirement financially, which is a whole different podcast, for sure, but the other piece is we’re not prepared socially for retirement because once you’re out the door, and those are the people that you’re left with.

42:17
Michael Warren
And I think that we need that bridge so that we can be healthier both during our career and post the career.

42:25
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. And I mean, whatever it was my dad did, he’s got his group of childhood friends, all of whom were at my wedding, at my recent wedding, he’s got several of his police friends or the people who worked for him that he’s still close with and still has active relationships with. And he has a really great relationship with his entire immediate family. So, like I’ve said before, he is why I know that it’s possible, and I want to be able to let other people know that it’s possible, because now here he is, retired, and he still has everything.

42:59
Brent Hinson
And it sounds like you’re doing a good job of that through your work and the website and the community that shrink. Can you talk a little bit about that? In case folks aren’t aware of it, they want to learn more because it sounds like you’re providing a good space for those people and resources as well.

43:12
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, actually, I just started hosting events, too, so I had my first event on this past Sunday for law enforcement couples. So I invited both the officer and their spouse to attend so that they could kind of, again, learn about these topics and how they can kind of navigate these things together. Because if the law enforcement officer goes out and embarks on this journey by his or herself, it’s not going to work if he’s got a partner. So I invited them to come together so that they could kind of learn these tips and these tactics and these skills together so that they could implement them at home together. So I just hosted my first in person event in August. I’m going to be hosting a Zoom event about finances. So, Michael, to your point, it’s going to be all about how to manage your finances as a law enforcement household, and there’s more events to come.

44:14
Katherine Boyle
I really want to, again, bring these people together who want more for themselves. They want to be effective cops. They want to have a great career, but they also want to live beyond their career. They want to enjoy life after they retire. They want to know how to enjoy life after they retire, and they want to recognize who they are and who their family is when they’re on the other side of things. So I will be hosting more events in the future to bring these people together so that they know that they’re not alone. They know that there are other cops in their shoes who they can talk to about these things, and together they can maybe support one another and find strength in that. So that the same way there’s culture and camaraderie in that choir practice in the parking lots. There’s camaraderie and culture in this more healthy dynamic of building relationships and improving.

45:12
Michael Boyle
Their quality of life, the challenges that were recognized. Katie. We saw this at the event today with the shrinking police force and the ever increasing demand on police forces is really creating a very stressful situation for families. And I don’t know quite how to deal with that other than to recognize it. And that’s we have to talk about that, and the families have to talk about recognizing the need to do this, but also the need to deal with it and accept it to some extent. We can’t just walk away.

45:47
Michael Warren
Well, Michael, I think that you would agree that the work that you did, especially the work that you did in Sbu, was incredibly important work. You’re working literally to save kids from harm. The value and the importance of that work cannot be overstated. But how tragic would it have been if save all those kids and then lose your own in the process? The secret is to be able to do both, and it sounds like you’ve managed to do that. And Catherine, it sounds like that’s what you’re trying to help equip others with.

46:24
Michael Boyle
Exactly. That’s a very good point. Yeah, that’s a very good point. And you would know this. So many cops are working on their third wife.

46:32
Brent Hinson
I’ve learned what a starter wife is. I just heard that this year, my.

46:37
Michael Boyle
Wife and I are working on 40 years.

46:39
Brent Hinson
Wow.

46:39
Michael Warren
Congratulations.

46:40
Brent Hinson
Congratulations.

46:41
Michael Boyle
So that whole thing, the starter wife, second wife, third wife, that’s all because of the job and the stresses of the job and the demands of the job. Divorce becomes part of the job. It goes right in between the man and the woman. It’s like right there. So that’s the biggest challenge right now, especially now with all the demands upon them. Of course they’re making money, but it’s costing a whole it’s coming at a high price.

47:08
Michael Warren
Michael, it’s almost like that you got to have that divorce as part of your personnel file when you go for promotion. You know what? If you don’t have the divorce in here, it’s missing. You don’t have enough experience yet. You’re not qualified to be a supervisor yet. But you’re absolutely correct. And I love the folks that do the job. I really love the people who are doing the job and are coming into this profession right now. A guy, I retired with his son’s in the hiring process, and it looks like he’s going to get picked up and get sent to the police academy the end of next month. I’ve known this kid since he was born, and it excites me to see that happening. But I also know the long term damage that can come about to both him and his family if he doesn’t manage it well from the beginning.

47:54
Michael Boyle
That’s right.

47:54
Michael Warren
And so, Catherine, if you’re okay with it, I’m going to make sure that he gets the information that you’re talking about. So if somebody did want that information, what’s the best place for them to go and find that?

48:06
Katherine Boyle
Yeah. So my Instagram is probably my most active, which is the Lt’s daughter just spelled out. My email is also vltsdaughter@gmail.com. I’m also going to be launching an online private community for police officers. I launched it a couple of years ago, but I’m going to sort of revamp it and relaunch it at the end of August. So I’m hoping that can become a hub for these people to kind of communicate with one another. That would be the best way to get in touch with me, and I would love to chat with anyone who is kind of looking for these resources.

48:43
Michael Warren
I’m going to ask a favor of you, then we’ll make sure that we put those things in our show notes so our listeners can go and find that Brent and I both are somewhat like your dad and that we are becoming forgetful because of the years associated with our life. So as you get closer to the launch, if you would make sure that you reach back out to us so that we can put it out on our social media pages and try to help promote that. Because I love the folks in this job and any resources that they can get that’s going to make them better human beings and longer living human beings and healthier human beings we are all about.

49:19
Katherine Boyle
Yes, absolutely. I will definitely reach out and let you know.

49:22
Michael Boyle
Thank you.

49:23
Michael Warren
And Brent, whenever we have episodes where we talk about the inherent dangers of policing and not the physical dangers, it really does. It reminds me how much these folks deserve recognition for what they do.

49:39
Brent Hinson
And I think every time we do one of these episodes and we talk about a topic like this, I think there is someone out there listening right now that in their head, they think, I need help with this. Where do I go? And I love that we’re able to have the resources such as Catherine on Today and Michael talking about his point of view that we’re able to send those people in the right direction. So hopefully we can write their ship and get them on the track where they need to be.

50:02
Michael Warren
Absolutely.

50:03
Brent Hinson
Catherine is someone who reached out to us. I was either I think it was Instagram or Facebook through messages, and she said, hey, here’s an idea that I haven’t heard you guys talk about before, and we always welcome that. So thank you, Catherine, for doing that and suggesting this something we definitely wanted to delve into. And you can find us, you can message us if you’ve got an idea that you’d like to explore more that’s at between the Lines of virtualacademy.com. And we’ll have all of your information, Catherine, up there on our website when this episode comes out. Thank you guys, both for taking time today to speak openly and honestly about your situations and hopefully how we can help benefit others.

50:37
Katherine Boyle
Yeah, thank you, guys.

50:39
Michael Boyle
Great. Thank you very much. It was a great opportunity.

50:41
Brent Hinson
Remember, next week we’re going to explore this topic a little further. We’re again going to have two guests with a loved one in law enforcement. A little bit of a caveat this time around. Though the daughter of our very own Mike Warren is going to be with us. And not only that, we get to hear from Mike’s mom, who’s going to bring a unique perspective on having a son and a father that served in the law enforcement profession. You want to join us again next week for another look at the law enforcement family right here. I’m between the lines with Virtual Academy.